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Auction House and Castle can't work in parallel

 
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
Posts: 9

Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Auction House and Castle can't work in parallel Reply with quote

Strictly speaking this follows rules I guess, but in reality the Auction House and Castle are independent areas and face to face we'll often parallel them to speed things up. This is even more potent here as I'm in the Castle now, alone and I seemingly have to wait for someone in the Acuction house to play a card before I'm alowed to exhibit. I'd rather just exhibit and when they are done get on with the next turn.

True some people may conceivable (barely) want to se the outcome of teh Auction house before deciding what to play in the Castle, but if these really need catering for that's easy too by making parallelism optional. In short, I could now play by exhibit OR wait for the Auction House to complete then play it. To avoid a recursive wait the outcome of my Exhibit (or any otehr card) is NOT displayed on the pages viewed by people in the Auction house (i.e. from their perspective has not happened yet) until they have chosen their cards.

Easy enough to implement really and streamlines the game some.

Cheers,

Bernd.
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mrbass



Joined: 05 Apr 06
Posts: 182

Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are tons of reasons NOT to cicurmvent the rules. Too busy to list them all but the way it is now is correct.
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
Posts: 9

Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbass wrote:
There are tons of reasons NOT to circumvent the rules. Too busy to list them all but the way it is now is correct.


Wow, when you get unbusy, you can fulfill my curiosity. I can't think of a single one, and might credit there is one, but TONS? Sheesh, I feel like I have blinkers on or you're being a tad emotional Wink.

We play this way itable top and everyone loves it. In a web app you can even support optional parallelism as described without cicumventing any rules (read the proposal). Rules aren't changed, just the order in which the engine accepts commands with not change to what players see, just when they can use their time.

For example, right now I'm in the Auction house alone, still and I can't exhibibit because I'm waiting for sa slow poke to choose which of the two cards in the Auction house they want. Worse still they are both F cards and like I care what they chose. Now when they choose, the whole game waits on me. And if I'm not on-line for 8 or 16 hours when that happens there's a delay that needn't have happened if I'd filed my exhibit now. Even if my exhibit was made visible to the other players only in the proper sequence (after the slow poke had chosen their card in the Auction house).

Then immediately the otehrs can choose a location again, and when I get back on line I pipe in. Without parallelism, they can't do that we all colelctively wait till I'm back on-line, play by exhibition and then we can choose locations.

Believe me, I'm struggling to see tons of reasons why that's a bad idea to anyone.
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mrbass



Joined: 05 Apr 06
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Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a player shows their exhibit say A,B,C,C and another exhibits A,A,B,C and then it's the persons turn who won the auction has a choice between E or B which one do you think he would take if he already had B,C,D,E in his hand? Obviously E unless it's a 1600 card or something. Without prior knowledge though the winner of the auction can't screw the people who exhibit. Must I go on?
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Sparrowhawk



Joined: 14 Mar 06
Posts: 16


PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a problem with it.

If I am exhibiting and I don't care what the auction winner picks then it saves everyone time if I can choose my exhibition before the auction is concluded.

The game doesnt have to immediately show my choice. It can show it in the proper order, so the person in the auction has no advantage.
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Kanga



Joined: 27 Oct 05
Posts: 1503

Location: Moe, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be in favour of the changes above; this game drags on way too long for the lightweight game that it is. Anything to speed it up would make it much more playable. I dont see any significant disadvantages of submitting moves at the same time.
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
Posts: 9

Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other seem to have grasped the point mr bass? Allowing me to optionally to make my move now because I don't care about what the people in the other house do is empowering as I may be about to head out the door to web silence for 8 or 16 hours. Making me wait, forces everyone else wait till I get back.

Now the site does not have to show the result of my choice, nor that I have even made a choice to any other player at all until the proper turn sequence has arrived. basically I am queuing a move in advance knowing I don't care about what the others are doing.

This is so usual as to be mundane to my mind. It's like voting by proxy at an auction. You queu up your instructions and let them do the work. This is the point of a good e-game system to my mind to help make things flow.

A powerful engine would even allow me to select conditional moves. I do X if A eventuates or Y if B eventuates, and then this happens on my bhalf as instructed while I'm asleep in bed and my co-p;layers are up wanting me to move so they can respond. But I wasn't even asking for that kind of power really, that's a second step again. The first step is to allow the queueing of an unconditional move if I know what I'll do regardless.

In response to your example then two points:

1) The exhibitions of A,B,C,C and A,A,B,C are not made visible to the person in the auction house. Instead, when they make their move and it is resloved, suddenly the exhibits happen even though the first two players are at home in bed. Now the player in the auction house can immediately choose a new location again and go to bed. Hence players synchonicity is wildly enhanced.

2) I don't even understand why you'd choose E. I can't see any reason to choose B or E at all that is overweighing - and I've playe dthis game for years now and loved it. If I choose E then it's not available to those two exhibitionists should they go to the auction house next turn, so what? If I choose B the same is true? either wa I have no idea what I'm uncovering when I choose B or E and if I were either of the two exhibitionists I'd be glad that the B was still in auction house as that's what I'd want to complement the hand of A,B,C,C or A,A,B,C. But in the Auction house I have no idea what other cards the exhibitionists have in their hands (bar the count, but even that isn't really known when we play face to face!) . Either B or E would do me fine thanks, and if you can see a good reason why E is an apparently obvious choice, I'm all ears again ...
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Last edited by The Thumb on Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:02 am; edited 2 times in total
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mrbass



Joined: 05 Apr 06
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Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Thumb wrote:


Now the site does not have to show the result of my choice, .


If that's the case...no argument from me.
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to confess I still have no idea why you'd choose E in that scenario let alone why that choice would be obvious ... fill me in, I'm curious to know what I'm missing.
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mrbass



Joined: 05 Apr 06
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Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why let the other two get E when neither has it. Also break chains when possible. I've seen players have 9 or 10 cards and have one crucial link missing like A,A,B,C,C,C,D,D,F

Well you say doesn't matter...but it does as when A,F are at the auction house usually fewer go to the auction house as those two are the LEAST valuable cards usually. Also how do we know if they don't have a couple of F cards in their hand.

Not sure..I've only learned this game like 3 or 4 months ago so it's just my way of playing. Perhaps I'm totally off who knows.
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'd take B if I were either of the exhibitioners because the best set of cards is all one letter. The mroe duplicates youh ave theb etter and the more robust you are against theievery. I'd much sooner exhibit A,A,A,B,B,B than A,B,C,D,E,F. And so as exhibitionist I'd want B not E because both already had B's and (possibly) not Es.

As auction House guy then if I wanted to bug them I'd pick the B, but I would never do that because the chance that either of them will visit the Auction house next round to pick up the B, when they didn't this round is low. Clearly they are not so desperate for a B or E to be in the auction house now, they are in the castle instead. So next turn the same is likely to be true.

Beyond that the variables explode beyond any ned to pursue them, but ther eis nothing obvious about it. They could have a B stolen for example (if there was also a thief in the castle that turn - and if there was they would almost certainly take both B's to break the exhibitors runs) then they might indeed aim for the auction house next turn to get the B!

BUT even this misses the whole point. This is nothing more than fance paper, sciscors, rock. A barrel of fnu with great thematics but sitll just guessig and second guessing. No matter how obviously either of them might want a B, and hence be at the Auction house, equally obviously they may not do that because it's predictable. In short, I win this game often by being wholly unpredictable. The more you can find yourself alone in either the castle or the auction house the better off you'll be and the more you find yoruself alone playing a thief the better off you'll be. And the only way to be alone is ensure the otehrs can't predict what you'll do.

Hence reason is out the door, as it is in paper, scissors, rock, and you just do the unpredictable.

I remember winning one game by a mile simply by playing the castle from the first turn on, non stop, castle, castle, castle, castle, castle, castle and then out of the blue, auction house just once, near the end game Wink. Between thieving in the castle and exhibiting there and catching theives I ran ahead of the crowd somehow.

But it's not about winning oddly enough because it's ulitmately a game of enormous chance (as are bluff games) and teasing. It's a game of thatrics in a sense which is lost on-line anyhow and I accepted an invite to play with reservations. The joy of this game for us has always ben laughing outrageously at peoples attempts to second guess an doutguess one another and failing or scoring ...
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mrbass



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Thumb wrote:


But it's not about winning oddly enough because it's ulitmately a game of enormous chance (as are bluff games) and teasing. It's a game of thatrics in a sense which is lost on-line anyhow and I accepted an invite to play with reservations. The joy of this game for us has always ben laughing outrageously at peoples attempts to second guess an doutguess one another and failing or scoring ...


I agree it's just a hoot when all 6 players choose detective. I feel I have a better chance of winning a hand of blackjack than winning at this game. I mean when I do win at Hoity Toity it feels like I won the lottery as that's pretty much how lucky I feel.
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbass wrote:
I agree it's just a hoot when all 6 players choose detective. I feel I have a better chance of winning a hand of blackjack than winning at this game. I mean when I do win at Hoity Toity it feels like I won the lottery as that's pretty much how lucky I feel.


Almost, not quite like a lottery. It in fact papers, scissors, rock glorified and hence far more entertaining because of thematics and greater depth. The difference between that and a lotery is that you get a chance to try and outguess one another. You see the reality is, that the optimal strategy against rational players is the purely random. It will have the best chance of success. But all other players are not rational and they know the same thing. And hence it's a blufing game as opposed to a guessing game and that's the fnu. When the bluffs don't work.

It's game unlike most othrs I know where table talk is empowering and encouraged at our table. Talk abotu what you ar eplaying, might play, incentives, wheel deal, and just play and then see who stabs who how and so on.

It's just as funny to see all thieves and detectives come out in the catle. Loads of people in jail with not items to show for it Wink. But all detectives is always a hoot as is all tieves in the auction house!
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The Thumb



Joined: 27 Aug 06
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, it looks like this was implemented. I just bought an item in the Auction house and voila immediately the people in the Castle showed up with the cards they'd seelcted and the exhibitioners are now up to select their exhibitions.

This could also optionally be permitted as a queued move of course, but it's unlikely anyone would ever choose to make one in advace as the size and makeup of you exhibition is a storng function of whether there are any thieves about ot not!
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