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Beirdo and Thyrza Play the META-Game
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Did I just waste my day?
Yes; you did!
65%
 65%  [ 13 ]
Yes; and now I realize I wasted my time with them before!
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
I am Beirdo and/or Thyrza, Where do I vote?
30%
 30%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
demarryl



Joined: 09 Aug 06
Posts: 4


PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Beirdo and Thyrza Play the META-Game Reply with quote

I posted a game of Wallenstein. Two people joined, Beirdo and Thyrza, and I started the game. We are just at the first year mark. They NEVER attacked one another, only me or empty spaces up to now. This caught my attention. I did some research and found they both live in Puerto Rico...interesting. I messaged about it and thier response was that this is normal in games. I agree that with F2F games this happens, but seriously. In the online world I consider it blatant cheating. I have posted the messages from the game following. It became apparent that there is some romantic action between the two.

Game Number: 10621 Check it out!
http://www.spielbyweb.com/game.php?games_id=10621

Don't play a game if both of these players are in. It isn't worth it.
Playing one or the other I am sure is fine.

demarryl: Do you guys play together a lot? (Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:56 pm)
thyrza: we sure do (Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:00 pm)
thyrza: I think your armies like the tower way too much and they don't like to come out... you have like 5 in the tower by now (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:13 am)
demarryl: So you both play together to take me out? This is a HOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!

Just play a two player game and STOP WASTING MY TIME!

thanks (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:13 am)
Beirdo: ahh, that's just part of the game. If you played the game on a real board game, don't you think people would team up anyways? (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:26 am)
demarryl: Are you going to play again tonight? (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:38 am)
thyrza: game is not over... yep we are going to play again tonight (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:39 am)
thyrza: you are kicking my butt baby (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:45 am)
Beirdo: hardly. You are doing just fine. (Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:45 am)
[url][/url]
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Beirdo



Joined: 05 Jul 06
Posts: 16

Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You consider it blatant cheating to play the game by only attacking one person? Yes, we happen to know each other, and happen to be husband and wife. That doesn't mean we are cheating. There are no rules against communicating with other players that I've ever seen.

And as for it being a "waste of your time", games by their very definition are a way to pass the time, and aren't productive. I find your post to be inflammatory and it just shows you as being mad because you didn't win. It's not as if you really tried either. You gave up, and didn't even counter-attack after a certain point. You had several chances to stop either or both of us, and you chose to not even do a Move A or Move B. You can't win the game by sitting there and not fighting back.

I'm sorry that it seemed unfair and that you were disappointed with the game. Don't let your first game ruin your experience. I wish you better luck next time. With a little practise, you will likely be winning many Wallenstein games.
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ges



Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think it would be best for people this close to not play in the same game. Seems collusion is just too likely. Maybe not as bad as one person with two accounts, but certainly in a gray ethical area.
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Beirdo



Joined: 05 Jul 06
Posts: 16

Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see at as just the same as if we were playing a board game face to face at a table. In that case, we would ALL know each other fairly well in normal situations. The possibility of collusion is there, of course, but I see no reason to not play together. And who's to say that teaming up is bad?

ges, we have played against you in the same game before, and if I remember correctly, you kicked both of our butts. In fact, in most of the games we've both been in, we've both not won. So what's the point of saying "you shouldn't play the same game"? In every case but this one, all the players seemed to be enjoying the game. I see no issue.

I do feel sorry for demarryl in that he didn't enjoy the game and that neither of us noticed it WAS his first game until it was too late. For that I apologize. For how I play, I do not. Divide and conquer is a valid way to play Wallenstein AFAIK.
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Bkruppa



Joined: 08 Nov 05
Posts: 241

Location: Fremont, Ca, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least they are willing to take their turns in games, unlike someone who starts a game and then refuses to finish. One borders on collusion, the other borders on poor sportsmanship. Personally, I prefer to play against people "ganging" up on me then a poor sport anyday.
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HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a game like Wallenstein, I think I'd want to know if the other players knew each other, played with each other frequently etc. I'm not saying I wouldn't play if that were the case, but I'd at least like to know.

I play games with my spouse all the time on SBW and I don't think it's ever been an issue -- but we typically play with the same group of people who know both of us and know that it's not an issue.

My advice: disclose this sort of information if you're playing with someone else for the first time -- especially for a game like Wallenstein where there could be offline negotiation.

Just my two cents.
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Beirdo



Joined: 05 Jul 06
Posts: 16

Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we will certainly keep that in mind in the future. It can't hurt to tell people. When he asked, we didn't exactly try to hide it though. If he had continued to fight back rather than just give up, he woulda done a lot better. If we had noticed it was his first game, we also both woulda taken it a bit easier too. Oops.

Anyways, if he wanted to know if we played together often, our completed/current games view from our profiles would easily show that. But as a new user, I guess it didn't cross his mind to check that. Also, if there were 4 players, it would have totally not been an issue. Starting the game early may not have been in his best interest.

We'll think about how to let people know later, I guess. Although if people read the forums, we wouldn't have to now. Heheh. Either way, the game wasn't "a waste of time" any more than any other game in my mind.
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craw-daddy



Joined: 09 Feb 06
Posts: 59

Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beirdo wrote:
..... Divide and conquer is a valid way to play Wallenstein AFAIK.


Well, perhaps, but when you "divide" and pair up against the only other player, then is that argument so valid? Then it becomes a 2 vs. 1 game instead of a 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 game. Granted I haven't played many games of Wallenstein, either on this site or in real life, but I haven't been in nor witnessed a game where one player has been completely eliminated from the game (sometimes there might be someone without many territories but not elminated entirely).

When you play face-to-face, there's also not as much of an issue of collusion because unless you've decided beforehand, or you have telepathic powers, then the other players will know or figure out the collusion (especially when you say "Don't attack me! Let's take out that other guy together!"). When you're online and can talk to your wife/partner/friend in private, then this kind of collusion isn't so obvious (or is less obvious). (And I know that others have already said similar things...)

In any event, justified or not, this new player might have that "got ganged up on by the more experienced players" feeling, and could be resentful of it. This certainly isn't what we'd like to do to the new people here, is it? I hope not. If I was playing a three player game and got ganged up on like that I'd probably be resentful too. But that's one man's opinion...
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ges



Joined: 28 Mar 06
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your point. And the fact that you are posting here and explaining your particular case makes me believe that you and your spouse are not being deceptive. So..I'll let it go at that.

g

Beirdo wrote:
I see at as just the same as if we were playing a board game face to face at a table. In that case, we would ALL know each other fairly well in normal situations. The possibility of collusion is there, of course, but I see no reason to not play together. And who's to say that teaming up is bad?

ges, we have played against you in the same game before, and if I remember correctly, you kicked both of our butts. In fact, in most of the games we've both been in, we've both not won. So what's the point of saying "you shouldn't play the same game"? In every case but this one, all the players seemed to be enjoying the game. I see no issue.

I do feel sorry for demarryl in that he didn't enjoy the game and that neither of us noticed it WAS his first game until it was too late. For that I apologize. For how I play, I do not. Divide and conquer is a valid way to play Wallenstein AFAIK.
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Beirdo



Joined: 05 Jul 06
Posts: 16

Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

craw-daddy wrote:

Well, perhaps, but when you "divide" and pair up against the only other player, then is that argument so valid? Then it becomes a 2 vs. 1 game instead of a 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 game. Granted I haven't played many games of Wallenstein, either on this site or in real life, but I haven't been in nor witnessed a game where one player has been completely eliminated from the game (sometimes there might be someone without many territories but not elminated entirely).


Yeah, I've never seen someone get entirely eliminated before either. If he had bothered to fight back nearing the end, I'm sure he would have had a few left, though.

craw-daddy wrote:

When you play face-to-face, there's also not as much of an issue of collusion because unless you've decided beforehand, or you have telepathic powers, then the other players will know or figure out the collusion (especially when you say "Don't attack me! Let's take out that other guy together!"). When you're online and can talk to your wife/partner/friend in private, then this kind of collusion isn't so obvious (or is less obvious). (And I know that others have already said similar things...)


It's more of "I won't attack you if you don't attack me". And in a face-to-face game, that would be pretty obvious anyways. In most board games I've played, I've attempted to take it easier on my wife than the others, often to my detriment. And yes, when it's a 3-player game, that only leaves one other to attack.

craw-daddy wrote:

In any event, justified or not, this new player might have that "got ganged up on by the more experienced players" feeling, and could be resentful of it. This certainly isn't what we'd like to do to the new people here, is it? I hope not. If I was playing a three player game and got ganged up on like that I'd probably be resentful too. But that's one man's opinion...


Oh, I understand that. Neither of us realized that it was his first game on the system. If I had, I likely would have chosen to attack more of the empty provinces rather than him, and I'm sure my wife would have too. Oh well.
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demarryl



Joined: 09 Aug 06
Posts: 4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ask each of you to not look at this as a first game by a player, but to look at the game. A three player Wallenstien game is mitigating risks, some places are vulnerable and tempting, but not as temptiing as the other players next door.... Again, not once did they attack one another, even when it was an obvious choice!

Also do not think I gave up! Look at the game and make your own conclusions!
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freduk



Joined: 18 Jan 06
Posts: 433

Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It must be love...
I know that when I play in the same game as my wife, teaming up is the last thing on our minds. It's all about who finishes better out of the two of us!
Generally I think teaming up on the quiet is not a good thing. At least use the message board to host your conversations. And teaming up in a 3-player game is very poor, especially if your victim was expecting a fair game.
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craw-daddy



Joined: 09 Feb 06
Posts: 59

Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

demarryl wrote:
... Again, not once did they attack one another, even when it was an obvious choice!
...


Hmmm, I see your point having looked at the game. Certainly not in the spirit of the game (i.e. attack your opponents, any of them, when it's to your advantage to do so). So count me amongst those who think that your time was wasted. When you're fighting two against one, there's not much point. Hope you have better (i.e. more interesting) games in the future.

And my remark about being resentful if it happened to me would apply in any game (even if it wasn't my first one).
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mrbass



Joined: 05 Apr 06
Posts: 182

Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely absurd. Must I disclose all my friends here on spielbyweb that I know in person. The people I've become friendly with. Gaming is just that gaming. Beirdo and Thyrza playing in the same games there is nothing wrong at all with that. You can read this or that and psychoanalyze a game but big deal. And yes I play with my wife on samurai and she kicks my butt and in a few 4 player games and no is not a factor in the least.

Continue on and enjoy the games Beirdo and Thyrza and don't let the <000.1% vocal majority stop you from enjoying playing german board games online together. If they have a problem with it then it's THEIR problem not yours.
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docaction



Joined: 21 May 06
Posts: 215


PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've put my vote under:
I am Beirdo and/or Thyrza, Where do I vote? Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz
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