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Faster interface

 
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frarobertooo



Joined: 17 Apr 04
Posts: 5


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Faster interface Reply with quote

Hi there!
First of all, I want to thank Mikael for this gaming site, very well done.
This is my first play with Tikal but I have found the interface unintuitive, or better, slow. Here are some suggestions:
* putting down an explorator only clicking in a camp
* grabbing treasure only clicking in the center of the exagon
* after selecting an explorator, move the pawn for several exagon continuously clicking step by step.
* after grabbing a treasure, asking if you want to look at it now or after. So you can redo the entire turn if not... useful for studing the possibilities tree.

Thank you,
frarobertooo
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HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

Hi there. I was one of the developers of Tikal here on SBW. We tried to strike a balance between the interface being easy to use and it being quick. We put the game through some significant beta testing to try to address user interface issues. Having said that, thanks for the suggestions and here are my responses:

frarobertooo wrote:

* putting down an explorator only clicking in a camp


How would it know whether you wanted a worker or a leader in the camp where you click?

frarobertooo wrote:

* grabbing treasure only clicking in the center of the exagon


Because of the limits imposed by treasure grabbing (only two-per-tile per turn, one-per-worker-per-tile-per-turn) you would have to mark each treasure tile in some way that would indicate you could grab a treasure there. I think it's less cluttered to only have those indicators show up after you click on the recover treasure action.

frarobertooo wrote:

* after selecting an explorator, move the pawn for several exagon continuously clicking step by step.


You would then need a way to say: "I'm done moving this piece". This would make multi-hex moves faster but single-hex moves would require another step. We had a similar debate over moving multiple workers at one time and came to the same conclusion: it would speed up some moves but slow down the more common moves.

frarobertooo wrote:

* after grabbing a treasure, asking if you want to look at it now or after. So you can redo the entire turn if not... useful for studing the possibilities tree.


This would break treasure trading since you can't trade treasures from sets. If you drew a treasure and didn't know what it was, we would have to disable trading altogether until you found out what it was. I just don't know how useful this feature would be, especially for the amount of rework it would require at this point.
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frarobertooo



Joined: 17 Apr 04
Posts: 5


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

Thank you for the fast reply Smile
I know, it's a kinda hard to made a simple implementation if you have so many choices during the game.

HappyProle wrote:
Having said that, thanks for the suggestions and here are my responses:

frarobertooo wrote:

* putting down an explorator only clicking in a camp


How would it know whether you wanted a worker or a leader in the camp where you click?

You call to arms the leader only one time, while you teleport explorer frequently. I think you can put only a specific button for the chief that disappear after you have used once.

HappyProle wrote:

frarobertooo wrote:

* grabbing treasure only clicking in the center of the exagon


Because of the limits imposed by treasure grabbing (only two-per-tile per turn, one-per-worker-per-tile-per-turn) you would have to mark each treasure tile in some way that would indicate you could grab a treasure there. I think it's less cluttered to only have those indicators show up after you click on the recover treasure action.

It's very difficult to implement, but it becomes easier if every explorer is unique. If it is you could track his position and put a tag showing if he have already take a tresure in the turn.
If it is not, well, it is much harder.
HappyProle wrote:



frarobertooo wrote:

* after selecting an explorator, move the pawn for several exagon continuously clicking step by step.


You would then need a way to say: "I'm done moving this piece". This would make multi-hex moves faster but single-hex moves would require another step. We had a similar debate over moving multiple workers at one time and came to the same conclusion: it would speed up some moves but slow down the more common moves.

Ok let's see it in that way:
You click over an explorer
The map is refreshed with all the places that that explorer can reach.
You click then in the place you want to move it. It's like the Blue Max Youplay.com Move preview.
HappyProle wrote:



frarobertooo wrote:

* after grabbing a treasure, asking if you want to look at it now or after. So you can redo the entire turn if not... useful for studing the possibilities tree.


This would break treasure trading since you can't trade treasures from sets. If you drew a treasure and didn't know what it was, we would have to disable trading altogether until you found out what it was. I just don't know how useful this feature would be, especially for the amount of rework it would require at this point.

Yes, I undestand that issue.
Anyway, this is a very good work!
Aloah
frarobertooo
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Wernazuma



Joined: 01 Feb 05
Posts: 71

Location: Graz, Austria

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

HappyProle wrote:


How would it know whether you wanted a worker or a leader in the camp where you click?


That could work similar to Carcassonne expansioon BSW. You'd have either the big one or the commoners activated above, as default activating the ordinary explorers.


frarobertooo wrote:

* after selecting an explorator, move the pawn for several exagon continuously clicking step by step.


I a path-algorithm calculating the minimum movement points between two tiles too difficult to implement?
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frarobertooo



Joined: 17 Apr 04
Posts: 5


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

[quote="Wernazuma"]
HappyProle wrote:

Is a path-algorithm calculating the minimum movement points between two tiles too difficult to implement?


Do you use matrix systems to find the solution?
Could you tell me more on this semi[OT] topic?
Thx!
frarobertooo
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TheCat



Joined: 15 Feb 05
Posts: 97


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, I came here to post nearly the same feature request.

1) Click on base camp default to placing a single regular explorer in the camp. If no workers are available, display a popup warning.

2) Click on treasure to dig the treasure. If a valid worker isn't present in the hex, display a popup warning.

3) Click on temple to dig new level. If a valid worker isn't present in the hex, display a popup warning.

4) Click on worker, display all legal destination hexes, click on destination hex. This is implemented in other systems, such as StreetSoccer on LittleGolem. I suspect someone would be willing to share their pathfinding code with you. Look to wargaming programmers if you need hex-map pathfinding examples.

5) During scoring rounds, indicate current score and anticipated score (if end-turn was clicked now, what would the score be?).

Quote:
Because of the limits imposed by treasure grabbing (only two-per-tile per turn, one-per-worker-per-tile-per-turn) you would have to mark each treasure tile in some way that would indicate you could grab a treasure there.


Using warnings for illegal moves would obviate this problem,as you wouldn't need to mark the allowed treasure tiles (or temple tiles in the case of digging temples). In most cases, people won't click on illegal locations, the default should be less clicking and respond with additional clicks needed only when an error is made.

Quote:
This would break treasure trading since you can't trade treasures from sets. If you drew a treasure and didn't know what it was, we would have to disable trading altogether until you found out what it was. I just don't know how useful this feature would be, especially for the amount of rework it would require at this point.


While I'm not sure of the utility of the original suggestion, I don't see how it would break trading. Currently, if you want to trade, the system checks to see which treasures can be traded. If one of the treasures was "unknown" it simply wouldn't be available for trading. This leads to my next suggestion:

6) Allow trading by clicking on the treasure to be traded. Don't allow clicking on pairs and triplets.
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HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

Every explorer is unique (we had to do this to respect the rules), but that's not the problem I was trying to illustrate. What I was trying to point out is that you would have to highlight each of the treasure tiles as being clickable (with a little icon or something) regardless of what the player was currently doing. It's really a question of having lots of little icons or buttons on each individual hex or having an action bar. The same goes for bringing leaders/workers to camp. At one point we were going to have almost everything board-clickable; but we went with the little action bar and player supply instead, since it seemed a little cleaner and simpler to show what actions were currently possible.

As for moving workers, we were intrigued by the problem of calculating the least-costly-path for moving workers multiple hexes in one action.. but ultimately we thought that these calculations shouldn't be made for a player. There's a philosophical question here of how much you alter a game to fit the medium, and how much "help" you provide the player. In this case we thought it was best to stick closer to the boardgame where it's up to the player to find the most efficient use of their APs.
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HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheCat wrote:

5) During scoring rounds, indicate current score and anticipated score (if end-turn was clicked now, what would the score be?).


I like this idea. In fact I was thinking the same thing during one of my current Tikal games.

TheCat wrote:

While I'm not sure of the utility of the original suggestion, I don't see how it would break trading. Currently, if you want to trade, the system checks to see which treasures can be traded. If one of the treasures was "unknown" it simply wouldn't be available for trading...


But that unknown treasure could make one of your singles into a set, in which case that single should be untradable. You're not allowed in the boardgame to keep newly-acquire treasures in limbo while you trade your singles. Just take the (unlikely) scenario that you have 7 single treasures and you pick up a new treasure: which of your single treasures can you trade?
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Wernazuma



Joined: 01 Feb 05
Posts: 71

Location: Graz, Austria

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Faster interface Reply with quote

[quote="frarobertooo"]
Wernazuma wrote:
HappyProle wrote:

Is a path-algorithm calculating the minimum movement points between two tiles too difficult to implement?


Do you use matrix systems to find the solution?
Could you tell me more on this semi[OT] topic?
Thx!
frarobertooo


Personally, I have no idea since I'm no programmer. I just thought about that option since a friend of mine did his master paper for informatics on AI in real time simulations. Path calculating algorithms were an important part in that.

Sorry that I can't help.
Greetings,
Wernazuma
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TheCat



Joined: 15 Feb 05
Posts: 97


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HappyProle wrote:
Every explorer is unique (we had to do this to respect the rules), but that's not the problem I was trying to illustrate. What I was trying to point out is that you would have to highlight each of the treasure tiles as being clickable (with a little icon or something) regardless of what the player was currently doing. It's really a question of having lots of little icons or buttons on each individual hex or having an action bar. The same goes for bringing leaders/workers to camp. At one point we were going to have almost everything board-clickable; but we went with the little action bar and player supply instead, since it seemed a little cleaner and simpler to show what actions were currently possible.


Huh? Why do you need separate icons or buttons? You've already got icons -- the temples, base camps, treasures and workers. Just make all the temples and treasures and current-player-workers and current-player-basecamps clickable. That was my point -- make it all clickable with the current icons -- no special icons to indicate what is clickable and what isn't clickable. In the rare cases where someone clicks a temple or treasure they aren't eligible to dig, or clicks a worker they aren't eligible to move, then you pop up an error message. Most people won't click illegal moves, but when they do, that's the point at which you should require extra clicks. You don't need red highlights or special icons to mark what is and isn't clickable.

HappyProle wrote:
But that unknown treasure could make one of your singles into a set, in which case that single should be untradable. You're not allowed in the boardgame to keep newly-acquire treasures in limbo while you trade your singles. Just take the (unlikely) scenario that you have 7 single treasures and you pick up a new treasure: which of your single treasures can you trade?


Yup, you're right. As I said, I don't see much utility in this particular suggestion, so I'd just drop it.
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