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Amun Re Tournaments - slow play
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Gaditus



Joined: 05 Feb 07
Posts: 1924

Location: Canterbury, UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Amun Re Tournaments - slow play Reply with quote

I have not commented on this directly before, but I think it is time to air the issue. One slow player can have a significant effect on the whole tournament. I do not know the reasons for this slow play, and I do not want to make any judgement when it may be beyond a players control as real life issues do arise Smile , but I do wish to make some comments/suggestions.

The second 4 and 5 player tournaments have been slowed down considerably (perhaps by a month!) because we have been waiting for games involving one player to end. This has also been the case for the 3 player tournament, although to a lesser extent as some games were not critical to decide the finalists.

In the third 5 player tournament all but 5 games have reached the half way stage, with many already finished. These 5 games involve one player and are bound to be relevant to the placings for the semi final.

I could leave things as they are and just wait things out. However, there are other things we can do:

1) Take the score in these games after round 3
2) Disregard these games completely and 'ratio up' the results from the other 4 games completed by those in the games.
3) Start the games again now as 4 player games, without the slow player left out.
4) Just wait.

Any comments?
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swok



Joined: 03 Oct 06
Posts: 96

Location: amsterdam

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:27 am    Post subject: slow play Reply with quote

Jou seems to know who the slow player is, i sugest that jou sent him a privite
message and ask him to speed up his play.
For this tournament whe have to sit it out, for tournaments to come whe can place him on the black list.
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Kanga



Joined: 27 Oct 05
Posts: 1503

Location: Moe, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an awkward situation. The Hacienda tournaments have similar problems from time to time.

My feeling is once they are started then you may as well let them finish. The time to avoid problems is in the enrolment phase. If there are a player, or certain players, who have been slow in the past, I think it's better to exclude them than try to work out a mid tournament solution. I'm not even a big fan of this, as I'd prefer to have tournaments open to all players.

As you seem to be running continuous tournaments, probably the best approach is to start a new tournament when most of the games are finished. Or, as you have done this time, try a "speedy" tournament around the midway mark of a normal tournament, so the speedy players have something to occupy themselves while awaiting the slower players. I will definitely start doing this in the Hacienda tournament scene.
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Legalu



Joined: 24 Feb 07
Posts: 50


PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Kanga on this one, but Gauditus asked people to sign up for the 5-player tournament ONLY IF they thought they would not slow down the tournament. I'd say that, by now, players who have not managed to finish a single game in the third 5-player tournament are slowing it down. Don't you agree Gauditus?
You could try harder thresholds for enrollment in future tournaments, like average time per turn less than X hours and a minimum of Y completed games. These values can be quite different for 3, 4 and 5-player games. It's less inclusive than previous tournaments, but you're still giving slow players the option of 3-player games.
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daveszum



Joined: 28 Oct 07
Posts: 219

Location: CST

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Slow game play Reply with quote

I suggest you go with option 3; restart game as a 4 player game. This way, you don't punish the other players. Further, the slow player should be excluded from all normal tournaments (ie. they play only in the "casual" tournaments). This would seem to be least disruptive to the tournament dynamic. The problem with looking at avg time between turns is that some players might prioritize tournament games but play other games slower. Of course, slow gamers should probably be put on a "slow gamers" portion of the site anyway (socially ostracized) Laughing

Hey, maybe that is a way to handle slow gamers. Create two gaming populations and use an if/then statement tagged to the average time between turns. Not being an IT guy, I am not sure how well this could work, but it certainly would allow for fast players to play with fast players and restrict slow players to play only with slow players. You could regenerate the time statistic each year so that people who pick up their pace could qualify for the "fast track" as it were. Maybe this is too much effort with not enough value, though. I really would rather see Caylus come out sooner rather than later anyway.
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HighwayStar



Joined: 09 Apr 04
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Restarting as a 4 player game is probably the best option. FYI, in the game I'm in, one player has taken about 15 of the 20 days of game time. The other 4 players took the other 5 days.
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brazo



Joined: 24 Nov 07
Posts: 12

Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm playing with the mentioned player. I would like to finish this one it's almost half way and I don't think we would play new one faster. Just let him know that everyone is waiting for him and let's see if it helps.
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Legalu



Joined: 24 Feb 07
Posts: 50


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more option:

5) Start the games again, now with t_o_m9 replacing the slow player. Gauditus forgot to include Tom in the draw, and he's a very fast player. I bet we'll finish all new 5 games before the first of the current 5 come to completion.
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freduk



Joined: 18 Jan 06
Posts: 433

Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the hurry? it's not as if the room is booked for another function later.
Whilst I agree that it's frustrating when you ask that slow players don't join, all you can reasonably do is put them on your personal blacklist and not accept them for future tourneys.
Replaying as a 4-player game in a 5-player tourney seems wrong to me. It's easier to win 4-p games, so this immediately penalises those who had to play 5-p games.

By the way, I'm not in this tourney, so this is a neutral viewpoint. Or, I'm just sticking my nose in... Wink
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Gaditus



Joined: 05 Feb 07
Posts: 1924

Location: Canterbury, UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your comments. There were some helpful suggestions, but certainly no overwhelming concensus.

I have contacted the particular player involved and he will try to give a bit more priority to his play going forward. I intend to wait for all the original games to finish. Any other solution would penalise those players who have made a good start to the games.

I do want to keep the tournaments open to as many players as possible, within reason, and any bar based on time taken per turn or other statistic would have a detrimental effect on this. Before starting a tournament I ask those players who have signed up, but have only recently joined the site, whether they fully understand the commitment they are making. However even if someone starts with the best of intentions, real life can intervene once the tournament starts.

Taking up Kanga's point about interim tournaments for the quicker players, I would be happy to run more tournaments, but unlike Hacienda there are not many variations with Amun Re. Any suggestions?
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Kanga



Joined: 27 Oct 05
Posts: 1503

Location: Moe, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it simple; run a tournament specifically for "fast" players. Let them get thier fix while waiting for everyone else to catch up. Hacienda does offer many ways to change things slightly, but any tournament will attract players.
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daveszum



Joined: 28 Oct 07
Posts: 219

Location: CST

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Slow play Reply with quote

I agree with Kanga. Make a fast play tournament just for people who are known to play fast. Yes, it's exclusive, but what does that matter? It is not like anyone is paying for this service (except for donations).
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cterrell



Joined: 18 Sep 06
Posts: 110

Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone goes to the effort of setting up a tourney, IMO they can be as exclusive as they like. If its obnoxious, people simply won't come back a second time. When I set up a Tikal Tournament of Champions there was a little grumbling, but not much, based on the criteria I chose for entry (total wins). That was pretty exclusive, and it worked well I thought. ( Except for the my not winning part... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes ) Anyone else had the option of setting up a general tournament as well, which would have been just fine by me.
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HighwayStar



Joined: 09 Apr 04
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Taking up Kanga's point about interim tournaments for the quicker players, I would be happy to run more tournaments, but unlike Hacienda there are not many variations with Amun Re. Any suggestions?

A bit silly, but how about a 4 player team tournament. Two teams of two players each where the team's score in the game is the lesser of the two team's members score. You would try to mess with the other team while trying not to conflict with your teammate. This would mainly affect bidding, pyramids and the offering. Be gentle, brainstorming here.

BTW, this is a fun way to play Puerto Rico...
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daveszum



Joined: 28 Oct 07
Posts: 219

Location: CST

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Team Amun Re Reply with quote

The team play idea sounds interesting as long as those who are playing don't mind the hit on their overall records (which should be less than an all gold tournament).
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