SpielByWeb Forum Index SpielByWeb
http://www.spielbyweb.com/
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Find a UserFind a User   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 Your GamesYour Games   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Amun-Re bidding applied to Tikal for offical auction variant

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SpielByWeb Forum Index -> Tikal
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Amun-Re bidding applied to Tikal for offical auction variant Reply with quote

I feel that the Tikal auction variant is more fun because it is more strategic. However when you play face-to-face people take forever and more to make a move. Thus a play-by-web would be ideal for this the auction variant. However an open auction for would take lots of turn to complete. Hence my suggestion is:

Auction of the Tikal tiles like provinces in Amun-Re.

The Amun-Re auction is a simultaneous, incresingly incremental auction where, once you are out bid you must bid on another tile.
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
RyanMC
SBW Developer


Joined: 13 Sep 05
Posts: 344

Location: Draper, UT USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are going to be doing the auction variant as soon as we finish up with Hacienda and put it into beta. We have looked at a few different ways to handle the auction, and none of them are perfect. I hadn't considered totally altering the auction and making it a bid on each tile type thing ala Amun-Re, we will have to talk about that. Either way, the auction will be put in in some form, and if people want to play it they can.

My personal feelings on the auction are its most beneficial for the 2 player game, and that won't add as much time to the game as it would for a 3 or 4 player auction. We will let the players decide how they want to use it or not.

When Myke and I start looking at a game to put in play by web format, the first thing we look at is number of turns required per player per game. In tikal thats a set number and its a good fit for this format. The auction can add 4-6x the number of turns required very easily in a 4 player game, so it will be interesting to see if it gets used a lot outside of 2 player contests.

Either way, thanks for the suggestion, we will look at that as a possible option.
_________________
---------------
-=RyanMC=-
---------------
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message Visit poster's website
TheCat



Joined: 15 Feb 05
Posts: 97


PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I just signed up for a game and had forgotten that there wasn't an auction. We've been playing for years with the auction "variant" and consider it the "regular" way to play the game.

If auction and no-auction are both available, I'll choose auction every time.
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:35 am    Post subject: How Reiner Knizia (Amun-Re) fixed open auctions Reply with quote

Let me explain why further I think Amun-Re bid system should be used for Tikal.

In real life aucitions, like ebay, one should be able to bid in increments of cents to out bid someone else. However in a board game such increments, although realistic, is tedious. Many times players bid one more dollar and may take several bids before some is the winner. As an example try playing Power Grid on BSW or face to face. How many bids are made until someone wins a power plant in Power Grid? Thats why Knizia chose to have one simultanous auction of several provinces at preset increasing increments so one cannot just bid one more dollar. Amun-Re bid system forces player to bid on provinces they really want close to what they really want to pay.

In the official Tikal auction variant you have an auction for each and every tile and you can out bid another player by one point. An auction can drag on for many bids. The reason why people don't like to play the auction variant with more than two player only is because it can take forever because you mave four auctions per turn where each player can out bid another player by one point.

Could you at least consider put the Amun-Re bid system as a variant for Tikal. I think it may make Tikal auction variant a playable game for four via play-by-web.

Thanks for listening Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I'm the Myke Ryan speaks of. )

I agree with you to a certain extent on the merits of the Amun Re bidding system -- especially for play-by-web games (can you imagine Power Grid in this format? ugh..) -- the triangular numbers certainly lead you to initially bid close to the value you expect to pay in the end. But wouldn't bidding on all of the tiles initially change the game significantly? IIRC, the first high-bidder takes his/her turn before the bidding for the second tile begins. What that person does on his/her turn could certainly influence subsequent auctions.

Unfortunately I don't have much experience to draw on for playing Tikal with the auction variant. It seems like whenever we play it we're teaching it or re-teaching it and therefore stick to the basic rules. I'd love to hear more feedback from Tikal auction vets about how many rounds the auctions typically go.

I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to handle auctions. We could even have two auction variants: one standard and one using the "Amun Re" rules.

--------------------

One other possibility we've talked about implementing for other auction games is a system where each player sets their max bid, then the auction proceeds in turn order automatically (sort of like eBay): when it's your "turn" if your max bid is higher than the previous bid your bid is automatically made. You could make this slightly more complicated by assigning a max bid per opponent, i.e. "if so and so is winning the auction, my max bid is X; if whatshername is winning, my max bid is Y." This would be a little more complicated up front and add a blind bidding element but would mean just one game-hit per auction phase. I think it would work better for fixed-increment auctions (like Princes of Florence).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
RyanMC
SBW Developer


Joined: 13 Sep 05
Posts: 344

Location: Draper, UT USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HappyProle beat me to responding. I thought about this overnight. I think it would be hard to do ina pure amun-re style since you are not only bidding on a tile, but on turn order. That would make it difficult to implement.
_________________
---------------
-=RyanMC=-
---------------
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message Visit poster's website
TheCat



Joined: 15 Feb 05
Posts: 97


PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said before, we always play auction style. In 3 or 4 player games, many auctions go once around the table, like this:

Player 1: pass
Player 2: 1
Player 3: pass
Player 4: 2
Player 2: pass

Often, by the time there are only two tiles left, it goes like this:

Player 1: pass
Player 2: pass

Sometimes, if there's one really good tile (a 5 temple) and three really bad ones, the first round of the auction might take a bit longer.

However, on the all-important scoring rounds, when a volcano is available for bidding, it will often go around the table several times, with the winner paying as must as 5-6 points.

The advantage of all this is that there is a lot of strategy in denying players tiles, in using turn order to place 'bad' tiles in disadvantageous places for other players, and definitely in being the first to make scoring moves (and thus being in a position to set the minimum on high-level temples -- if I go first, I might score a temple with 2 workers. The next player has to have 3 workers. The next player might not be able to score it at all as they need 4 workers, etc. Turn order is also tremendously important when maneuvering to place temple guards. imho, removing the variable turn order removes a lot of the tension from the game. I have no objections to "draw and play" being a variant, but you will make me very, very happy if you enable the auction.

Thanks! Tikal is one of my favorite games and I'm thrilled to see it here.
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
MarkJohnson



Joined: 02 Apr 04
Posts: 7


PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then there are some of us that never cared for the auction variant in Tikal, anyway, and are pleased as punch it isn't being used yet on SpielByWeb. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tomlynch



Joined: 23 Nov 05
Posts: 25

Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so happy to see Tikal on spielbyweb! It is one of those great games that I never seem to get to play. Personally, I prefer to play with the auction style but am still thrilled to have a chance to play with the standard rules. In my experience, the bidding does not go on for a very long time. Usually people drop out quickly if they bid at all. I can't imagine it adding any more than one or two player actions per tile. That is not much worse than a round of Amun-re, although the bidding would be more frequent. Just my two cents. Thanks for a great site.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanMC wrote:
HappyProle beat me to responding. I thought about this overnight. I think it would be hard to do ina pure amun-re style since you are not only bidding on a tile, but on turn order. That would make it difficult to implement.


Actually amun-re style would be fine because you are bidding for both turn order and the tile simultaneously. Who ever wants to place a tile first with the right tile of choice will pay a premium for that right.

According to Mr. Shannon Appcline, game reviewer and designer of www.rpg.net, a good auction game design should have items that "... Must Have Different Valuations for Different Players..."
Strategic Insights: Auction Games http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_144.phtml

As per TheCat's example, most auctions end with people bidding 1 or 2 points because the value of the items are too similar to each player. In an amun-re auction you are bidding for two independent items, turn order and tile so the valuation will differ greatly from player to player and thus player will bid higher much like the in Amun-Re, where a player may bid $10 gold for a province and forgo the opportunity buy another for for $0 gold.

In sum an amun-re auction will make the bidding more fierce and yet short, because it will increase the difference in valuation for each player.
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HappyProle wrote:
(I'm the Myke Ryan speaks of. )

I agree with you to a certain extent on the merits of the Amun Re bidding system -- especially for play-by-web games (can you imagine Power Grid in this format? ugh..) -- the triangular numbers certainly lead you to initially bid close to the value you expect to pay in the end. But wouldn't bidding on all of the tiles initially change the game significantly? IIRC, the first high-bidder takes his/her turn before the bidding for the second tile begins. What that person does on his/her turn could certainly influence subsequent auctions.

Unfortunately I don't have much experience to draw on for playing Tikal with the auction variant. It seems like whenever we play it we're teaching it or re-teaching it and therefore stick to the basic rules. I'd love to hear more feedback from Tikal auction vets about how many rounds the auctions typically go.

I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to handle auctions. We could even have two auction variants: one standard and one using the "Amun Re" rules.

--------------------

One other possibility we've talked about implementing for other auction games is a system where each player sets their max bid, then the auction proceeds in turn order automatically (sort of like eBay): when it's your "turn" if your max bid is higher than the previous bid your bid is automatically made. You could make this slightly more complicated by assigning a max bid per opponent, i.e. "if so and so is winning the auction, my max bid is X; if whatshername is winning, my max bid is Y." This would be a little more complicated up front and add a blind bidding element but would mean just one game-hit per auction phase. I think it would work better for fixed-increment auctions (like Princes of Florence).


The eBay example you gave is how auctions are done for the game Prince s of Florence by For Whom the Web Rocks PBEM (not PBW) http://www.fwtwr.com/fwtwr/index.htm . You can acutally read a play-by-play of it to better understand how they did it in my 1st game of PoF http://www.fwtwr.com/fwtwr/princes_florence/over/487game.htm

Shannon Applecline wrote an excellent analysis of different auctions used in games: http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_144.phtml

Also there is an excellent geeklist that catalogs different auction systems:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist.php3?action=view&listid=587

As for the playing the auction variant, I only played it on the PC version.

for bigger image: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/102321 and http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/88409

I bought the PC version from a ebay dealer from ebay Germany. My adventures of purchasing from German ebay dealer (I live in Los Angeles) is in this geeklist, PC version of board games I bought for $60 USD from Germany: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist.php3?action=view&listid=9621
Back to top
View user's profile BoardGameGeek Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SpielByWeb Forum Index -> Tikal All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group